Renouncing Faith | Dr. Stephen Phinney: It takes a stupid mind to determine what God means by what He says. Remember that stupid means knowing the Truth but refusing to act upon it.
In what ways have you attempted to be progressive in your thinking?
I don't like this question, but think the intent is "are there any apparent values in "progressive" theology?"
The answer is yes, because it is a mixture of good and evil- the evil often taking over in the end for being a mix it undermines the good and true.
However if you have the mix of good and evil then the good can also shine a light on the evil and it can be destroyed, if you use the light of God's Word to enhance and prove all things. (John 1:4-6)
My parents were Quakers and one of their main beliefs is “There is that of God in every Man”.
They claim that this is what Jesus meant in Luke 17:20-21:
"And when he (Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
However, every modern translation of this verse, reads it as "the kingdom of God is in your midst".
It was Christ who was in their midst, and he was the representative of God’s Kingdom. This verse is telling us that the Pharisees could not, or would not, see Jesus as representing God, or God's Kingdom.
While prior to the 1970’s the Quakers were very strict and biblical, from the 70’s onward they started to accept almost anybody into their congregation as they felt “There is that of God in every Man”.
While their acceptance of all people as having some value is correct, it also means that they accepted all the errors of their ways of life too, including homosexuality and adultery etc. Which was a grave error.
Many left the Quakers as they deteriorated and now, in Australia at least, they would not be recognizable to any Quaker from pre 1970's.
I was never a Quaker, but I appreciated their respect of all people (for that is exactly what the story of the Good Samaritan is about), but I also thought it was very stupid to accept anyone and their sins just because of this one unscriptural perspective, which has undermined the faith of many and is now a major belief of so called 'progressives'.
Martin, I get the Quaker theology. My bloodline is mostly made up of this group. My grandfather was a Quaker pastor. However, he and his mentor, Charles Finney, worked relentlessly to rebuild the Quaker people to focus on building up the Body of Christ verses the Quaker theology. Sadly, this turned into the "progressive" ideologies we find within this group today. Few, like my grandfather, developed many Christ-as-Life believers like me.
“Have you ever been tempted to renounce your faith in Christ?”
No, but I have renounced my adherence to the dogma/lies of progressive/liberal churches. I left the mainstream American church because of cognitive dissonance. ie: their supposed Pro-life/anti abortion stand along with their Pro war, genocidal/ anti-human stand.
I have since returned to my Anabaptist roots, which is my hometown Mennonite Church. This has grounded me and helped me get closer to the mind/body of Christ.
That's good to hear. But a lot of people use the Bible for very evil agendas, always have. It's not what is in the Bible, but how people interpret whats in the Bible. A classic example is how Cyrus Scofield was published and supported by The Oxford Press, which was owned by Zionist Jews, to write commentary/notes in the Bible to promote the agenda for a political state of Israel, something which is not in the bible. Sometimes those notes take up more room on the page than the actual scriptures.
God separates and divides those who are truly His sheep from the sheep and the goats, the wheat from the tares and the chaff will just blow away in the wind. Those who fall away from the faith that was first given to the disciples saints and as taught by our Master, Leader, Teacher, Good Shepherd Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit that leads us into all truth these verses in Hebrews are wonderful in describing such:
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
However, our salvation is not mechanical. Jesus Christ says that He wants those “who are worthy” (Rev 3:4-5). Those are His words, not mine. Jesus is not interested in mechanical salvation. A mechanical salvation is one that does not depend upon a genuine relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. He is interested in people who love Him, who want to obey Him, and who want to serve Him. As Jesus told us: “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love…. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.” John 15:9-10, 14
A real believer is born again as a new creation Holy spirit infilled and indwelt down to our mind will and emotions of our soul, and our body dead to its carnal lusts. Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
We first become a child of God to mature into a son or daughter adopted into His family, and as a new creature we receive the Holy Spirit. Obviously their is one doctrine of Christ Jesus and embracing ALL of the scriptures, believing all of them instead of just taking part of them and having to shove the other ones under the rug. The one who grants salvation is Jesus himself, not the hunan person who instructs us in the faith and not the person who baptised us. God’s grace can even cover doctrinal errors if He so chooses. We must continue on this journey of our relationship with God faithfully. A faithful journey requires obedience to Christ’s commandments. There is no contradiction between the fact that salvation is a free gift and the fact that we are to maintain an obedient love-faith relationship with Christ, which is actually receiving His indwelling enabling resurrection life and Holy spirit power working within us as part of His undeserved unmerited unearned undeserved favour of His grace. The word believe means something far more than to just give mental or intellectual assent to the fact of Jesus' divinity and the fact that He died for our sins. Rather, to true believers, the word believe includes obeying and trusting implicitly with full dependency upon Jesus Christ. If we do not live by Christ's teachings, we don't really believe in Him. The just shall live by faith and faith is an active response to obedience of what our father in Heaven asks of us, just as Abraham was called Gods friend because He acted by faith when God asked him to leave his native country, his relatives, and his father's family, and go to the land that God would show him. And he went not even knowing where he was going just put one foot in front of the other believing and trusting in our Heavenly father.
James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
There is no dichotomy between faith and works nor any conflict between grace and obedience. They all work hand in glove. Many of the people you describe never had a relationship with Jesus Christ to begin with, we're not truly born again but still born, did not receive a new spirit to become born again, renewed and regenerated and dine of them did not maintain their relationship with Heavenly father. In the parable of the sower, only one of the four seeds bore fruit. That one was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.
Sorry that was in answer to your question 'have you ever renounced your faith in Jesus Christ? Explain' and here is some more. Firstly I always pray that Heavenly father give me His power to stand strong in Christ Jesus to never deny Him and to rather die then be unfaithful to His love. Jesus died for me so I want to die daily to self to live for him. To live is Christ and to die is gain. My own dad asked me a question when I decided to give my life in devoted dedication through water baptism to serve and follow Jesus Christ at 17 years old, sadly yes I fell away from God in my 30's God wouldn't leave me alone and I fully came back to Him. Because I was so young I was duped by the stupidity of a religious institutional structure. Anyway my parents were not of that Christian religion and they were very opposed and were going to throw me out for my love for Jesus Christ. My dad asked me one day 'if someone put a gun to your head and told you to renounce Jesus or they will shoot you would you?' I said 'no I'd rather die.' then my dad asked 'are you stupid?' this made me laugh as it was wonderful actually because it gave an opening & opportunity to talk about Jesus as the resurrection and the life and whoever believes in Him will never die. Throughout my walk of faith in the past and even present, I have been presented with many small tests & trials at the workplace and big tests to stand up for God's righteousness & be even willing to go to prison for such. Every day we can be met with challenges to either deny Jesus Christ or live for Him. How we live our daily lives in Christ Jesus depends greatly upon our interpersonal relationship of intimacy and love for Him. It is all enabled by Him His grace and His love. It's so phenomenal, that's why it states He loves us first! Do we live a sacrificial crucified life? Do we die to self, to sins, and to satans kingdom of darkness? Do we come away from all of its ways, thinking ideologies, philosophies understandings & influences. From all of its politics, entertainment, secular music, psychologies, psychiatry, pharmaceuticals and do we choose God's kingdom & follow Jesus as the way, as the truth and the life living a set apart, sanctified life dying to the world in it but not of it. Our sole trajectory of pursuing our father in Heaven spending as much time with Him as possible. Redeeming our time wisely with God because we want to. And believe me I had wasted ten years to the inane world and to having lived in sinful ways and mistakes and this world is not your friend, it uses you tramples all over you, beats you up, gives you over to demonic spirits tries to rip your very soul out of you into hell itself spits on you & only laughts at you. I was popular in the world had friends. Yes, you willhave friends in the world because you compromise God's truths. This world of satans system only damages you severely. God lovingly opened my eyes literally scales fell off my eyelids when he started calling me back to Him. I had been so naive and so unprepared and tried to do it my way and some Jesus' way and made a right mess of everything, because ultimately I was trying to do things in my own strength my own wisdom through self. All things work together for the good, yet i could have saved myself so much heartache if I had just listened to God in the first place. But it was all necessary I had to be broken and completely crushed and come to the end of myself and truly understand deeply and empathise with all sorts of people, from the homeless, to the perpetual alcoholic to drug abusers, to the rich business people, those in high places yet God's judgement will all fall on those who refuse to repent. And praying always Heavenly father help give me ideas of how to practically show His and my love His sacrificial love as a Godly woman the daughter He has created me to be. To always keep me humble have integrity and have absolute honesty with God with myself and with others, reflecting DAILY how to support and nurture others. And commit to perpetual growth in Christ Jesus and he always show & identify areas to me of how to exemplify Jesus' qualities of sacrifice through action and protective care to others, bringing forth His fruits by and through Him and His word activated by His enabling power & spirit. And fully embody the sacrificial love of Christ and He keep opening those opportunities to share Him yeilding to His will through continual growth purpose and commitment.
You are welcome. I love reading your comments! When they are long and in one paragraph, I need to set aside time to read them. Short blasts are the best. Love you, sister.
In what ways have you attempted to be progressive in your thinking?
I don't like this question, but think the intent is "are there any apparent values in "progressive" theology?"
The answer is yes, because it is a mixture of good and evil- the evil often taking over in the end for being a mix it undermines the good and true.
However if you have the mix of good and evil then the good can also shine a light on the evil and it can be destroyed, if you use the light of God's Word to enhance and prove all things. (John 1:4-6)
My parents were Quakers and one of their main beliefs is “There is that of God in every Man”.
They claim that this is what Jesus meant in Luke 17:20-21:
"And when he (Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
However, every modern translation of this verse, reads it as "the kingdom of God is in your midst".
It was Christ who was in their midst, and he was the representative of God’s Kingdom. This verse is telling us that the Pharisees could not, or would not, see Jesus as representing God, or God's Kingdom.
While prior to the 1970’s the Quakers were very strict and biblical, from the 70’s onward they started to accept almost anybody into their congregation as they felt “There is that of God in every Man”.
While their acceptance of all people as having some value is correct, it also means that they accepted all the errors of their ways of life too, including homosexuality and adultery etc. Which was a grave error.
Many left the Quakers as they deteriorated and now, in Australia at least, they would not be recognizable to any Quaker from pre 1970's.
I was never a Quaker, but I appreciated their respect of all people (for that is exactly what the story of the Good Samaritan is about), but I also thought it was very stupid to accept anyone and their sins just because of this one unscriptural perspective, which has undermined the faith of many and is now a major belief of so called 'progressives'.
Martin, I get the Quaker theology. My bloodline is mostly made up of this group. My grandfather was a Quaker pastor. However, he and his mentor, Charles Finney, worked relentlessly to rebuild the Quaker people to focus on building up the Body of Christ verses the Quaker theology. Sadly, this turned into the "progressive" ideologies we find within this group today. Few, like my grandfather, developed many Christ-as-Life believers like me.
“Have you ever been tempted to renounce your faith in Christ?”
No, but I have renounced my adherence to the dogma/lies of progressive/liberal churches. I left the mainstream American church because of cognitive dissonance. ie: their supposed Pro-life/anti abortion stand along with their Pro war, genocidal/ anti-human stand.
I have since returned to my Anabaptist roots, which is my hometown Mennonite Church. This has grounded me and helped me get closer to the mind/body of Christ.
Dennis, whatever the Holy Scriptures support, so do I. Plain and simple.
That's good to hear. But a lot of people use the Bible for very evil agendas, always have. It's not what is in the Bible, but how people interpret whats in the Bible. A classic example is how Cyrus Scofield was published and supported by The Oxford Press, which was owned by Zionist Jews, to write commentary/notes in the Bible to promote the agenda for a political state of Israel, something which is not in the bible. Sometimes those notes take up more room on the page than the actual scriptures.
I agree. Commentaries can be dangerous. That is for certain. Jesus said we must become as children to inherit the Kingdom of God. No truer words.
God separates and divides those who are truly His sheep from the sheep and the goats, the wheat from the tares and the chaff will just blow away in the wind. Those who fall away from the faith that was first given to the disciples saints and as taught by our Master, Leader, Teacher, Good Shepherd Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit that leads us into all truth these verses in Hebrews are wonderful in describing such:
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
However, our salvation is not mechanical. Jesus Christ says that He wants those “who are worthy” (Rev 3:4-5). Those are His words, not mine. Jesus is not interested in mechanical salvation. A mechanical salvation is one that does not depend upon a genuine relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. He is interested in people who love Him, who want to obey Him, and who want to serve Him. As Jesus told us: “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love…. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.” John 15:9-10, 14
A real believer is born again as a new creation Holy spirit infilled and indwelt down to our mind will and emotions of our soul, and our body dead to its carnal lusts. Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
We first become a child of God to mature into a son or daughter adopted into His family, and as a new creature we receive the Holy Spirit. Obviously their is one doctrine of Christ Jesus and embracing ALL of the scriptures, believing all of them instead of just taking part of them and having to shove the other ones under the rug. The one who grants salvation is Jesus himself, not the hunan person who instructs us in the faith and not the person who baptised us. God’s grace can even cover doctrinal errors if He so chooses. We must continue on this journey of our relationship with God faithfully. A faithful journey requires obedience to Christ’s commandments. There is no contradiction between the fact that salvation is a free gift and the fact that we are to maintain an obedient love-faith relationship with Christ, which is actually receiving His indwelling enabling resurrection life and Holy spirit power working within us as part of His undeserved unmerited unearned undeserved favour of His grace. The word believe means something far more than to just give mental or intellectual assent to the fact of Jesus' divinity and the fact that He died for our sins. Rather, to true believers, the word believe includes obeying and trusting implicitly with full dependency upon Jesus Christ. If we do not live by Christ's teachings, we don't really believe in Him. The just shall live by faith and faith is an active response to obedience of what our father in Heaven asks of us, just as Abraham was called Gods friend because He acted by faith when God asked him to leave his native country, his relatives, and his father's family, and go to the land that God would show him. And he went not even knowing where he was going just put one foot in front of the other believing and trusting in our Heavenly father.
James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
There is no dichotomy between faith and works nor any conflict between grace and obedience. They all work hand in glove. Many of the people you describe never had a relationship with Jesus Christ to begin with, we're not truly born again but still born, did not receive a new spirit to become born again, renewed and regenerated and dine of them did not maintain their relationship with Heavenly father. In the parable of the sower, only one of the four seeds bore fruit. That one was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.
Matthew 13 entire chapter.
Sorry that was in answer to your question 'have you ever renounced your faith in Jesus Christ? Explain' and here is some more. Firstly I always pray that Heavenly father give me His power to stand strong in Christ Jesus to never deny Him and to rather die then be unfaithful to His love. Jesus died for me so I want to die daily to self to live for him. To live is Christ and to die is gain. My own dad asked me a question when I decided to give my life in devoted dedication through water baptism to serve and follow Jesus Christ at 17 years old, sadly yes I fell away from God in my 30's God wouldn't leave me alone and I fully came back to Him. Because I was so young I was duped by the stupidity of a religious institutional structure. Anyway my parents were not of that Christian religion and they were very opposed and were going to throw me out for my love for Jesus Christ. My dad asked me one day 'if someone put a gun to your head and told you to renounce Jesus or they will shoot you would you?' I said 'no I'd rather die.' then my dad asked 'are you stupid?' this made me laugh as it was wonderful actually because it gave an opening & opportunity to talk about Jesus as the resurrection and the life and whoever believes in Him will never die. Throughout my walk of faith in the past and even present, I have been presented with many small tests & trials at the workplace and big tests to stand up for God's righteousness & be even willing to go to prison for such. Every day we can be met with challenges to either deny Jesus Christ or live for Him. How we live our daily lives in Christ Jesus depends greatly upon our interpersonal relationship of intimacy and love for Him. It is all enabled by Him His grace and His love. It's so phenomenal, that's why it states He loves us first! Do we live a sacrificial crucified life? Do we die to self, to sins, and to satans kingdom of darkness? Do we come away from all of its ways, thinking ideologies, philosophies understandings & influences. From all of its politics, entertainment, secular music, psychologies, psychiatry, pharmaceuticals and do we choose God's kingdom & follow Jesus as the way, as the truth and the life living a set apart, sanctified life dying to the world in it but not of it. Our sole trajectory of pursuing our father in Heaven spending as much time with Him as possible. Redeeming our time wisely with God because we want to. And believe me I had wasted ten years to the inane world and to having lived in sinful ways and mistakes and this world is not your friend, it uses you tramples all over you, beats you up, gives you over to demonic spirits tries to rip your very soul out of you into hell itself spits on you & only laughts at you. I was popular in the world had friends. Yes, you willhave friends in the world because you compromise God's truths. This world of satans system only damages you severely. God lovingly opened my eyes literally scales fell off my eyelids when he started calling me back to Him. I had been so naive and so unprepared and tried to do it my way and some Jesus' way and made a right mess of everything, because ultimately I was trying to do things in my own strength my own wisdom through self. All things work together for the good, yet i could have saved myself so much heartache if I had just listened to God in the first place. But it was all necessary I had to be broken and completely crushed and come to the end of myself and truly understand deeply and empathise with all sorts of people, from the homeless, to the perpetual alcoholic to drug abusers, to the rich business people, those in high places yet God's judgement will all fall on those who refuse to repent. And praying always Heavenly father help give me ideas of how to practically show His and my love His sacrificial love as a Godly woman the daughter He has created me to be. To always keep me humble have integrity and have absolute honesty with God with myself and with others, reflecting DAILY how to support and nurture others. And commit to perpetual growth in Christ Jesus and he always show & identify areas to me of how to exemplify Jesus' qualities of sacrifice through action and protective care to others, bringing forth His fruits by and through Him and His word activated by His enabling power & spirit. And fully embody the sacrificial love of Christ and He keep opening those opportunities to share Him yeilding to His will through continual growth purpose and commitment.
I pray that growth remains rich in Jesus Christ.
Some not dine, sorry typing too fast and not self editing before I press enter. Many apologies.
Yes, short paragraph comments work best for me. I am more than willing to answer any questions you have. Thanks.
Sorry. Advice heeded and taken onboard. Thank you for letting me know, deeply appreciated.
You are welcome. I love reading your comments! When they are long and in one paragraph, I need to set aside time to read them. Short blasts are the best. Love you, sister.
Agreed. Genuine salvation is indwelling salvation through His Life within us via the Holy Spirit. No indwelling = mechanical salvation.